Good. Thank you. All right, I see Kim on, Jessica, Olga. I'm in the last one. Amy, Jacqueline. Hey, Amanda, when we get our quorum in here, I'll have you go first, so you don't have to stick around and listen to all of us and our nonsense. I appreciate it. I'm sorry if it's too loud. Our dinner ran late, so I'm just stepping outside for a second. Wonderful. Is this like a, you said it was a residency dinner? Yeah, all of the girls from like the PGY3 and PGY4 classes are getting together and celebrating graduation. Nice. That's really fun. I'm sorry to drag you away from it. No, that's okay. We ended up starting late, so it's fine. It's all good. All right. Well, we'll try to, hopefully people will come on in not too long. So, you know, we generally tend to be a pretty informal group, so I always encourage people to have their cameras on and to speak up whenever they feel the need, so there may be some of that going on. Okay. I do want to give us a little more time to have more people show up. Yeah. Hey, Brian, you don't know how many people actually pre-registered, do you? I'll get that number for you. Hold on one second. Brian is our AAPMNR guy. He's going to just hang out in the background and help us whenever we need help. So Dave, is Cincinnati flooding yet? Is it what? Is it flooding yet with all this rain? You know, we had flooding back in April, but right now, not that I've heard of. Yeah. In April, my nephew kayaked from Kentucky to some Irish bar in downtown, had a beer and kayaked back. Yeah. It was bad. There's a total of 19 that registered. You're currently at 30 minus me, so that'd be 11. So there's about seven people that haven't attended, but here comes another one. So 19 total. Okay. I'll give it a little bit longer then before we get started with anything formal. So I only have like four things on the agenda to talk about, some of which are just going to be mentions. So I depend on the rest of you to provide content, or we can just hang out and talk. Feel free to, you know, grab a cocktail, a glass of wine or a beer, lemonade or a coffee. Amy, are you still skiing out in Colorado? Ha ha. No. Baseball season for us now. But not for the Rockies, because I think you could if anyone wants like cheap tickets to the Dodgers or the Diamondbacks come to Denver for Rockies games. I was just talking to Brian, I'm going to finally get my wife to a Cubs game next month. Stop and see my son and get caught up on her way to a business meeting. Thanks for the heads up that this was happening in member, member May. So, so we're, we're trying to be good, you know, citizen members of the AAPMNR. Utilize their, you know, participate in their, their gatherings and whatnot. So, yeah, that's a good chance to just see everybody's faces, chat, see how everything's going. I think we got the email about the virtual fellowship fair dates too. So hopefully maybe we can. Yeah, well, that's why Amanda's here. Awesome, Amanda. Sweet. Yeah. Jacqueline, good to see your face again. We did, sorry, an AAP physiatry little event just about peds rehab fellowship. So I'm back to using my old computer right now. I had a little technical difficulties on my screen share, but that's okay. Okay. My computer wanted to do some VPN client update something. And it was, I was, it, it gave me like three deferrals, but they all came five minutes apart. And I was like, this cannot happen in the middle of the meeting that I'm supposed to be running. It was freaking me out. I hate, I hate my work computer. All right. Well, I think probably we can get started. I want to let Amanda get back to her dinner. We pulled her away from a dinner. Oh, there's Angela. Okay. All right. So I only have a couple of things on our agenda. The first thing is the virtual fellowship fair. So I want Amanda to be able to give us a little bit of insight on what she's doing. And again, request that we all respond to her email about the dates. So Amanda, go ahead. Hi, I'm Amanda. I am the trainee chair trying to put together the fellowship fair this year. We use some feedback, I believe from the programs, Dr. Hartman, and then also talking with the applicants and then trying to make it a little more simple. Tuesday and Thursday nights seem to be good. So currently we are planning to do a session with programs on the 17th and the 26th of June. In total, it's like a two hour slot, but each program would get about a 30 minute window. You would have 10 minutes and then you'd rotate through three groups of trainees or people that are interested in fellowship or learning about more. You can use that 10 minute chunk with them how you'd like. And then if you wanted to hang around longer, you could, but you don't need to. I'm trying to make sure we get you a date that works for you. So I sent out that email. So the 17th and the 26th, if your program could do one of those dates, that would be great. And then on the 24th, we'd like to do a session with incoming fellows, current fellows, recent fellows, that can be just a Q&A session for people that are interested in applying to ask questions and get more information. So if you have somebody that would like to help with that part as well and be on that diet, if you could pass along my information or give me their information either way, you can let me know by Thursday, this Thursday, the 22nd. My goal would be to try and get dates finalized on the 23rd and give you all hopefully enough notice, a good amount of notice to get in there. But happy, any questions you have, anything like that, happy to answer anything right now. Amanda, can you clarify the process again in terms of what the expectation is we bring? Like if we're meeting on the 17th and 26th, did you say, are we each talking about our programs to the entire group for a while and then breaking into small groups? Sure. So it would be, everybody kind of logs in at that start time. We do just a brief introduction to everybody about what to expect for the night and then put any applicants that are on and split them up into three rooms. And then your program would rotate through like breakout room one, breakout room two, breakout room three. And you would spend approximately 10 minutes in each of those rooms sharing a little bit about your program. And then also hopefully the applicants in that room can ask you questions or anything that they have briefly. Does that help? Yeah. Thank you. Yeah. No, that's a better idea of what the format is. Thank you. Any other questions for Amanda? And if you think of something later, it's totally fine to email and ask, but I'd love to get the schedule out to you either Friday versus Monday would be my hope. Amanda, do you want us to use this, the Gmail? Stubbs.amanda.k at gmail.com. Yeah, that works for me. If it works for y'all, if you need a more official one, you can use my first.last name at UT Southwestern. Okay. Thank you so much. Yeah, of course. Yeah. Thanks for stepping up to that position and taking this on, Amanda. We really appreciate it. Sure. I'm excited to be a part of things. All right. Excellent. Enjoy your dinner. All right. Thank you so much. Thanks, Amanda. Bye. All right. So I do also want to put a plug in for the AAPM&R's fellowship phase. I do also want to put a plug in for the AAPM&R's fellowship fair. So that's the more general fellowship fair that includes all specialties. So that if you can put it on your calendar for August the 26th, that's a Tuesday, 6 to 8 PM. I'm pretty sure that's central time as everything else with the academy is. Am I correct in that, Brian? Central? You are correct. Carl, what was the time again? 6 to 8 PM, Tuesday, August 26th. All right. Other things that I had on my list, I did want to give a plug for the JPRM resident and fellow panel. So this is an opportunity for trainees to join. Especially for any trainees who are very gung-ho in the academic world and want to get a leg up on their dossier for promotion and tenure, it is a national committee that they can put on their resume. There's the opportunity to present in front of national groups at the academy meeting, as well as at the AAP meeting. The trainees from the panel have presented the Jane Neufeld award and paper at the academy meeting in the past. So anyone who's interested should reach out to Elaine Pico through JPRM. So I don't have an incoming fellow this year, but for those of you who do, there's leadership opportunities for someone who could be on the committee for more than one year. Also open to combined residency residents. So for those of you in Cincinnati and Denver and Chicago, that's an opportunity for your residents as well if they have an interest. So let them know. And then Kim had sent out a question about using Thalamus. I don't know if we want to go ahead and discuss that a little bit. I know at our program I have not used it. I found logging into it and just getting it set up to be a little cumbersome. But now that I've had a change of program coordinator and a reduction in staff relative to faculty, it's an idea that I'm playing with to help offload some things from my program coordinator. Just interested in anyone else who's had experience with Thalamus and what you found useful and not. Carl, we've used Thalamus for four years now, I think, since the pandemic actually started. And we found it really nice. I think it's probably maybe I'm mistaken in saying this, and I apologize if I am. I think a lot of us interview in different ways. A lot of us interview with a few applicants or one applicant on a single day versus those of you who interview bigger groups of applicants on the same day all at one time. For programs that interview at smaller numbers like one or two or three on single days and you have a lot of dates that are available, it was life-changing, I think, for us in terms of scheduling so that the program coordinator didn't have to do a lot of back and forth emails and back and forth phone calls to get people scheduled. And then it also kind of opened up the opportunity for candidates to potentially change dates if they needed to change dates and kind of see what was available to change dates to from an interview standpoint. So we use it mostly or all for that. We don't use it at all for interview videos. We did it the first year that it was available. And I'll say it was clunky the first year, and I'm sure it's improved since then. But we just kind of moved back to using either Zoom or Teams and have stayed with that. I guess we could try to go back to using the opportunity through Thalamus, but we just haven't yet. Yeah. Anyone else's experience with Thalamus? Does that mean nobody's using it, or? I just had one other thing. In the past, they weren't linked to Eris, right? And so there were a lot of extra steps that you had to take in terms of... That was the clunkiness I was talking about. Yeah, yeah. Now that they're linked, it's a lot easier, I think, than it used to be. So that has helped. I think in Colorado, we started using it. I'd have to actually ask my coordinator more of where she has been leveraging it. I think the scheduling piece was sort of an easy pickup, especially with dates and letting people switch and avoiding the back and forth and that type of thing. I think, honestly, our N of applications has been sort of so low, I haven't used it to sift through and all this. Maybe if I was running a pediatrics program, I'd have to figure it out a little bit more. But for me, everyone gets basically a complete read, so I guess from that perspective... I'm the same way. I read every word of every application. Yeah, yeah. Someone chimed in. Was it Unama? I'm trying to remember just on the email thread that we had. Kim, I don't know if you had used it, but there were a couple of people who seemed to have figured it out more than maybe we have. But it could be good to just hear from them at some point. This is Marina. Hey, Marina. Hey, I'm with Unama at Texas Children's. We use Thalamus, and it's actually been really helpful. That said, we do have an admin that helps us with all the uploading of the documents. But personally, as an interviewer, it's helpful to have all the documents in one place, score in one place, read all the letters, the application, so that we don't have to check in one email for one thing and then check another program for another thing. You're just focusing on Thalamus. A few comments in the chat. Jason and Amy said they've not been using it. Jessica said they're planning to use it this year, but not for the interviews. And Jacqueline said they're not using it for PRM, but have used it for the residency program. So they're looking into using the scheduling piece. So it sounds like good response to the scheduling piece, maybe not so much response to the actual interview platform. Thank you. Sorry, I'm driving. My last meeting went over, so I'm in the car, so I can't participate as much as I was hoping. But we have not used it. But they are asking what features of it we might want to use. So I was just curious. I didn't want to throw another twist at applicants if they're not familiar with this concept or software at all. And thanks for your input on what parts have been helpful and what parts have been either less tested or less helpful. All right, so those are all the things that I had on my agenda. I just want to kind of open things up for everybody else anything that's on anyone's mind. I have a question about the interviews themselves. Are the majority of programs sticking with virtual interviews again. Is anyone switching to in person. Well, I'm at University of Michigan and our like GME guidance was that they're no longer mandating virtual as it's up for each program to decide for themselves so we were just interested to hear what everyone else is doing. So, I, in Columbus, we're going to be sticking with virtual. I think that it's, you know, our GME office does not give us a lot of support for the interview process in terms of budgetary stuff so a lot of the cost points of falling on the applicants. And I think from an equity standpoint, that it's really important to me that we keep it a virtual process. I'm hamstringing myself somewhat because people who have not grown up in the Midwest and been exposed to Columbus. You know those of us in the Midwest we people from the coast think that we that we're in that we're a cow town. And I can tell you that Columbus Cincinnati and Indianapolis are not cow towns in any way shape or form. But I still think that so getting people to the city would be advantageous for me. But I think that it's, it's more important to be equitable and to reduce the cost for the applicants so I'm staying virtual even though we're in a similar situation as Michigan in that it's no longer mandated by our institution. And they, they're basically telling us we can do whatever our national guidance is. Now I will say in previous years we have all agreed on virtual only and had that statement at the start of the fellowship fair. So, I don't know that we're going to be willing to do that. This year I'm interested to see what other people think about that. I'm curious if anyone's going to do in person, you know, or mandatory. David, I know your website says that you're doing. Yeah, so Amy reached out to me last week because I gosh it's embarrassing to admit I've not updated our website in many, many, many, many years probably. We are not planning to do in person interviews. So we'll make an edit to that. I haven't to tell you the truth Amy I haven't even gone to look to find that yet. I wasn't trolling his website one of our one of our residency candidates, like who's interested in our fellowships nationally was telling me and I need to save days because Cincinnati is doing in person. I think we are. I'll just say we're in alignment with kind of what Carl saying in terms of equity. You know, I think it's just important for us to consider just how expensive it is for everybody to fly drive hotel, all those types of things I think in this fiscal environment I think that probably the majority of us are in right now to. I mean, I think that it's, it's, I don't anticipate that it's going to get better. And I just want to be cautious and equitable on as far as that goes and I will fix our website, I promise, at some point, or that is one of the advantages of having your coordinator retire suddenly is that the new coordinator comes in and actually looks at the website. Yeah, you know, this whole coordinator thing is an interesting topic in itself, like, you know, the 20% FTE towards the coordinator that you need to have I don't know how the majority of your programs work but I've never in 20 years and I hate to admit that I've been doing this for 20 years. I've never had somebody who's a dedicated coordinator it's always been an administrative assistant who's had time to kind of devote to the fellowship training program so it's absolutely I think 20% is a myth. Yeah, so the coordinator kind of falls on my shoulders a lot, I think, too. So, and that goes along with the correcting the website like I need to find out who the person is to correct the website, because I don't know how to do that but I'm just to be clear and we are not planning to do in person interviews either. I think it's worth the discussion at this group every year that I mean in terms of, you know, how we make a decision is, is that a group decision is that an individual institutional institution there's no way to mandate that right, but I think it's just a good conversation for us to have every year. So far nobody has spoken up to say that they are interviewing in person as anybody. I haven't decided yet. To be honest, I was wondering, you're going to do Josh. Yeah, I mean I honestly I haven't decided. I haven't technologically advanced to actually demonstrate what the program is able to do I don't think we're very good on our online presence. So I haven't decided if I can, what to figure out as of yet. So, that's the honest answer, likely virtual because I don't know if I had the finances, with all the cuts that we've actually had this year to be able to do an in person because we've had a lot of financial cutbacks at the institution. But, yeah, I haven't decided. That's the honest answer, but I probably have to make a decision somewhere in the next month or two. Yeah, I think this is like a would be a really rough year if you think about applicants, being in. Sorry they're in residency but even if whatever their pay is like they might have, if they're have a partner with an income like a lot of those jobs are threatened to. So, you know, I think, you know, I, you know, I think we were kind of maybe steering Oh I'm hearing, maybe steering away from like a mandatory virtual but like I think it should be strongly encouraged. Yeah, I think it's initial step with sort of that applicant option you know sometimes there's an applicant who's like I don't know I got to see a city to understand whether or not we're going to move here for two years but you know I that also comes with like the equity of like does someone get to see it but anyway, I think we're all in a pinch financially in the healthcare area. I agree with me. We haven't. I don't know how we're going to do it. I think it will be more virtual, but it will be also driven by the institutional decisions which they haven't made it yet. I would love to have this option for so called the second look, if we can offer it to the people last couple of years our institution has done that, but it was done strictly through the Jimmy office with no involvement of any programs. So, don't know how we've had the same here but my problem has been that their second looks are geared towards the main match and are occurring a little bit late in our cycle for our applicants to take advantage of. was scheduled within the timeline for our applicants but I have no idea if anybody came on out because we were not involved in or not informed. If anybody came. I think it's also in terms of going back to the Thomas, we don't use it the children's I'm not planning on using it. I know that a lot of people using for scheduling but in my opinion since like any me said numbers are so low. I don't see really reason to, or I don't feel like it's very difficult to have the schedule around without it. So, and I don't know honestly how many applicants, potentially I hear this year I look at this list that Teddy created years ago actually it was before today I think Stephanie Tao created it. Yeah, right. So, honestly, the very limited numbers. All right, and Kim's saying that they're doing virtual in Kansas City, but they do have their GME office, so I'll just take a look. Carl, at some point, can you just open it up to questions? Like I know that there's some maybe new leaders, newer to the front, like if anyone has questions about program, director leadership, whatever, you know, this is a good forum to ask those too. Yeah, no, absolutely, this is a completely open forum, and I'm glad to hear anything that anyone has questions about, commentary on. I actually have a question. This is Tim Crater from Michigan. Hey, Tim. Hey, so I'm just, in the last month, Jess and I switched roles, so I'll be the director going forward, and Jess will be the associate. Last year, we did offer a second look, but we specifically told people it'd be after we made our rank list, so that it wouldn't, so they knew it had no bearing at all. How do people handle the second looks currently? Are they doing it that way, or are they doing it before they've submitted their rank list? We do it the same way you're talking about, Tim, so we do it after we do our rank list, just so that it's unbiased and it doesn't, you know, from an equity standpoint, we maintain that level of equity. Yeah, we're the same way. Same for Texas Children's. I have a question, because this came up at our institution. So, we make our rank list, like, shortly after interviews, but, you know, you're not able to enter it for several, you know, until national residency opens. So, what do you guys do? Do you wait until you enter it in the NRMP before you offer that second look? Or do you have it saved somewhere? And you can say, like, I made my rank list. Here it is. We haven't changed it, because that's what we wanted to do, but our institution didn't allow us to do that, so I just kind of wanted to hear from you guys. How did you prove that your rank list didn't change? Yeah, I guess I don't have any proof that my rank list didn't change, other than, you know, our rank committee, which is, you know, it's a committee of the whole, as I suspect most of us are in terms of the size of our department, the whole, everybody gets a vote. We put the rank list together, so, but then once it's submitted, only myself and the associate program director can actually log in to see it. So, I guess we're just to check on each other. It's like a hard, because the window's tight. Like, did this come out, I'm trying to remember, like, I'm making up a date. Was it October 28th? You know, so a lot of programs probably had already interviewed, and so that ends up being a tight window to be like, and your second look has to be in the major holiday season during this time, so I think some of it. Well, not to mention it's the same season as national meetings, so. Yeah, might be on your honor, you know, as far as, you know, there's a lot of things in our profession that are like that, so I guess that, you know, if someone's holding truthful, then I guess, you know, your committee holding it before it's certified, then, you know, that's probably what someone would have to do, so. All right, and more people that seem to be logging in. Hey, Tyler. So yeah, so I think that that's really all you can do, is to be true to yourself. But I've not had anyone ask me for proof that I didn't change my rank list. No, it just came up in discussion. So we didn't offer any second looks until after we had entered our rank list. But I mean, I think having this discussion is helpful. So maybe we can offer some more dates, more time frame this year. So I have one more question, too. Was this meeting, was this announced anywhere? Because luckily, Matt Severson caught it a couple of days ago. So we were able to join tonight. But I was just, I didn't see any other, I guess, communication about this meeting occurring. So no, let's just say I've been a little distracted for the last several months. I don't know if you were at the AAP, but I had a acute medical event while at the AAP meeting. I have five new doctors in the last three months and have been a little distracted on top of trying to get my Molnar chapter done. So I apologize that the meeting was not advertised in the way it should have been. That is entirely on me. So yeah, my apologies, Amy. No, I'm glad that you're OK. But I just wanted to make sure I wasn't missing it somewhere else. So thank you. I'm sorry to hear, Carla, about your trouble. I hope you're OK and get well and be well. But I want to echo Amy on that one in terms of the communication. And also, not to sound selfish, but about the time for the meeting. I know that we work with the time zones here. I'm not sure if, actually, anybody's here from the West Coast. I don't recognize any names. But it would be nice to have it a little bit earlier in the evening than that. Yeah. So one of the limitations of working with the Academy for member May was that I was able to submit requests and then was assigned a time. So there is a little bit of a restriction there. But yes, we do have to be conscious of our colleagues on the West Coast to try and be as inclusive as we can and make sure that we're not having a meeting when they're still seeing patients. So that is a restriction that these kind of meetings always have. So yes, it's late for me, too, especially now that I've turned into an old man with my medical problems. Any time I can spend with you, Carl, is worth it, regardless. Thanks, Josh. I appreciate that. But yes, all the work up so far has been very reassuring. And as they say, sometimes you can have a problem and not know about it. And it's better to now know. So that is definitely the approach that I have taken. But I appreciate the concern. All right, any other issues that anyone has? Questions? I have another one, if I can go again. Absolutely. I think we've talked about this before. But is there a way we can formalize the email list of all of the PDs and APDs? I need to add, Tim obviously needs to be added to this list. And is the best way just to reply all with him on there? There seems like there should be a better and smoother way to do this. Yeah, how do we dynamically have, especially with all the changes and all the programs, how do we best manage our listserv? Yeah, and even just making sure that everyone who is serving as a program director and APD is actually included in our member community with the AAPMNR. Although it never occurred to me until Unoma's email that we would have members of the group who are not members of AAPMNR. So that was something that was just not in my thought process. So I apologize to her for that. And we'll do our best to figure out ways that we can accommodate that. So AAP had some listservs in the past. So I had asked them if we could create one for our group. And they seemed pretty open to it initially, regardless of whether you were a member of AAP. However, they have shifted to something that seems very similar to Fizz Forum. I think they're calling it Fizziatry Connect or something like that. And so when I asked most recently about it, they said that that was their new model and format. I mean, it would still require, if they were able to do a group email, it would still require somebody to maintain it. But at least you could just sort of find that one email and email everyone versus have to dig through and find everybody else's email. But it sounds like there's essentially, from what I gather, at a higher level, very similar to Fizz Forum, where you can post there. And hopefully, if you're a member of that group, you would see it. But I think that would be limiting for the same reason that Carl just mentioned, that some people are not members of AAP. Some people are not members of AAP MNR. So you're going to miss at least a handful of people on either side if you use one of those as the primary means of communication. Jessica, I was thinking of the same thing that you just posted, which is a Google group. We have Google groups for other things. I think we've talked about the Stephanie Tao list that existed. I haven't looked at that in many years, but something like that. And when I pulled together the program director emails for talking about the task forces that we're working on right now for looking at different training options for PH rehab, I created a list of program directors and associate program directors. And what I had to do to create that list was go to the ACGME program lists and go down each program and see who is listed as program directors. And I know that those change year to year, too. But I have that Excel sheet that I would be able to share with somebody who knows how to create a Google group, so you don't have to do that background work. And then that can potentially be edited if somebody wants to do that. I'm happy to share that with anybody. And that's a month old, so it should be relatively up to date. It doesn't have Tim on there probably, but I think it's otherwise up to date. We made the change under cover of darkness. It's OK. If we're in agreement, I'd be happy to spearhead that effort and create the Google group and get everyone added to it. I'd be happy to share the Excel sheet with you, Jessica. It has both fellowship directors and combined program directors on it, too, which I think is good for us to be inclusive of everybody. Absolutely. I agree, Dave. Jessica, if you would do that, I would be very appreciative of that. Yeah, sounds good. If you send that to me, I will work on it tomorrow. Jess, can you do me a favor and can you send me your email address or tell me your email address? Yeah, no problem. I'll put it in the chat here. OK. All right. I, just so that the group knows, I know some people know, but I am undergoing a site visit this year. So I will get to be, for our fellowship, I'll be the guinea pig for our specialty and what this new era of site visit is. I don't know if it's a visit or if it, like, I don't, I know limited information right now, but it will be probably sometime between now and December. And if it's happened by AAPMNR, I'm happy to share what it was like with this group at some point or even put that all together in some way or form or lessons learned for even another program director meeting. So I'm a little nervous. I did prepare for March 2020 and then everything got moved. But yeah, it's a chance to tighten up the bolts and go through that. So I know some people know that that's happening, but I just want the rest of the group to know. I think that's great, Amy. I think, I'll share, I went to the ACGME meeting, the annual meeting they have in March, February or March of this last year. And they announced, because everybody's kind of been waiting about or thinking about, when is my next site visit? Because they changed to the next accreditation system back in 2014. And it kind of changed. I'm going to show my age here. Like back in the day, you used to get three, four, or five year accreditations. And then you had a site visit every, depending upon how well you were doing with accreditation. And then they changed the next accreditation system where they were doing, you had to submit your information and they would review it at the ACGME. And if you had a problem, you would have a site visit. Or otherwise, you would have a site visit every 10 years. But then that 10 years came simultaneously with the pandemic. And things changed subsequent to that. And now they've decided to do what they call random site visits every year, where they'll decide on a number of programs that they'll visit, not necessarily every program or kind of your, along the date of when you had your last survey. But those of us who have been more than 10 years out from our last survey are probably more prone to be, quote unquote, chosen or random to have their site visit. So I think it would be really helpful for all of us, Amy, to learn from you kind of what this site visit is like and how it compares to previous site visits from the ACGME. Sounds great. Love being the guinea pigs. Good luck with that, Amy. Our GME office did share that they shared that the frequency of citations is higher after a site visit. And so I'm going to try to put the good vibes out there for this. And I'm trying to continue to clean out the administrative closets and organization and all this stuff. But admittedly, I'm a little nervous. Like, you try to do your best and be really detail-oriented and all this stuff. But it's, yeah, I mean, it'll be interesting. And I'll share what I learned. I think you will do just fine, Amy. Having sat on the RC for many years, I mean, there's no attempt from an RC standpoint to be critical and picky and try to find citations. It's really to identify those areas that are really out of compliance. And I'll call you to do a mock grilling. I'll appreciate that, David. I would be happy to do that. As long as it's compliant, because I think you're off the board. I'm off. Yeah, I don't do ACGME stuff anymore. But happy to help in any way. All right, I think we got a notice for an institutional review, so I'm looking still forward to getting to participate in that. Also, anyone who knows anyone who's remotely interested in pediatric rehab, let them know about this fellowship fair stuff too, because I'm surprised each year there's some applicants in our pool who didn't know it was happening, so not everyone uses different communication methods, so if you know a med student that you've met with with maybe an inkling of interest, share this information with them, or any resident, I think, in any PGY year can benefit from hearing about this, thinking about it, and not just wait, because I think we've had conversations with people from PGY2 up, sometimes med students, and I think it's just great to make connections with people, so if you guys have anyone in the wings with even an interest in pediatric rehab in any way, I think the fellowship fair can be a great way for them to hear about our field. Yeah, as I said before, there was somebody at the fellowship fair that was a med student last year who turned out to go to Emory, didn't know we even had a program or a fellowship, and she's been with us shadowing and doing rotations for like the past year. Yeah, well, as I've said, I've moved my recruitment all the way down to the 8th grade level, so got to get them early. All righty, any other things to bring up? We're getting close to the end of an hour, and I want to be respectful of people's time. Real quick, as part of the Peds Rehab member community, we were trying to help with efforts for recruitment, so I looked through AAP's fellowship directory and found about seven or eight changes that needed to be made, whether it was program directors or websites, so you may be getting an email from them to confirm that, and I'm just looking through AAPM&R right now, and there are a handful of programs with not updated information, so old program directors. I haven't clicked on anything to see what the websites and things take you to, but I don't know how much applicants or residents use either of those, but in the spirit of what was discussed earlier for updating your website, that might be something to take a look at, and I'll try to look through those as well. Just a heads up. Thanks for doing that, Kim. Yeah, and then I know Amanda's not on, but did anyone have questions about the fellowship fair, or if you joined late? Amanda was on. Yeah, I know, but I know a couple people joined in late, so if you have any questions about that, or I can review it real quick for people who joined late, but essentially, we looked at the feedback from the applicants as well as the program directors, and so everyone will, each program will probably have like a 30-minute block where you will have three 10-minute sections with a group of applicants to avoid the feeling of them. We got a lot of feedback that people felt like it was more like an interview, and it was sort of one-on-one applicant with the program, and so that made them a little bit uncomfortable, I think, and then a lot of feedback from us that when you only had one person, maybe you had a few rotations where you didn't have anybody, and then you're there the whole time, so essentially, you'll only have 30 minutes of time, three rooms with more than one applicant, just depending on how many people are there, so if the fair is two hours, you'll only really need to be there for really need to be there for like 30 minutes of that two-hour block. And then just to clarify, since you're talking about it, is it you're the only program in there for that 10 minutes just with a group? Yes. Okay, got it. So I don't know, I'm just making up numbers. Say there's five candidates in each room, so then you'll go into that room and say, hi, I'm from such and such a program, here's a little, whatever information you want to share, have them ask questions, however it is, so it's more like a small group session than a one-on-one or a one-on-two or a two-on-two kind of thing, and then She ended the night with like a Q&A, or like what's the best way to manage the time and presence? So I think she was going to leave it open, so if people wanted to stay on the whole time and answer any questions like later, if that's what you're asking about, you can. My thought was you can just provide them with your email and contact information, so if you don't get to it in that 10 minutes, because I know that's kind of a short amount of time for everyone to get questions in, that they could contact you outside of it, but I think either way would be an option. I mean, say it starts at six and you go right at six, I don't know if people want to hang out until eight, just waiting for maybe a question for their group. So we'll see. Let us know about the format, and we're always trying to make it better for everybody. Well, can I just ask a question, because I'm not sure it makes sense to me now that I'm thinking about it a little bit differently. So if we are in with a group of people for a half an hour, and those are three different groups that we're meeting with, or three different potential things, it's an hour and a half long, right? Is that enough for all the applicants to be able to go to all of the different programs? So maybe I'm not explaining it correctly. So I'm just making up times and things here, but let's say Cincinnati, Columbus, and Michigan are in the first block, so maybe six to 630. So from six to 610, Cincinnati might be in room one, Columbus room two, Michigan room three, and then it'll rotate at 610, rotate at 620. So then those three programs would be done. So in each room, there would be three, four, or five, however many applicants divided equally in each room. So you'd be speaking with a handful of applicants or people who are interested, medical students, that kind of thing during that time period. Does that make sense? Hi, I'm just struggling a little bit. I mean, just 27 or 26 programs, I'm just trying to think about, like, I just may just not be thinking about, I may just need to have an off. Sure. So then, so say you're on that first Tuesday from six to 630, that would be your only time slot. And then 630 to seven would be Indiana and the two Minnesota programs. And then seven would be like Kansas City, Chicago, and I'm making up Houston. And then the last slot would be maybe the West Coast programs. She's trying to cluster it a little bit geographically to help the applicants based on their feedback. So that if somebody knows they're not interested in whatever Kansas City, then maybe that half hour they can take a break from. So you'd have basically you'd have a 30 minute ish commitment on one of those two nights. Yeah, perfect. So it's kind of like a program overview, and then being able to kind of exchange, share some information on how to get in touch with us, since there might be more of a group setting. And then, yeah, because I think even one of our feedback I heard directly was like, someone was like, I didn't know I was supposed to be prepared to ask questions in all the rooms. And they just weren't quite ready for that, even though they're absolutely stellar human and candidate and always prepared, I think. So this sounds like it'll be another great trial. Yeah, we got a lot of that feedback, like they felt like maybe not necessarily felt like it was an interview, but just felt a little uncomfortable being like, oh, I'm in a room with a program director and APD and maybe a current fellow, and it's just me. And now I'm sort of in the spotlight. And they're just like, oh, what do you want to know? And I'm like, oh, I don't know what my questions are quite yet. And then, as I mentioned, sometimes we'd rotate and you'd be sitting there for 10, 20 minutes without somebody in your room. And then you're like, okay, what do I do as a program director during that time? So we're hoping that this maximizes everybody's time. But we'll have to play it by ear. If it seems like it's not enough time, and there's too many people in each room to really get much information across, we can always adjust it. Will we need to submit any slides like we did all these past years about the program information? We talked about that. So I think that would be helpful. Let me confirm that with Amanda, though, that was her, if she decided on that. But I think that would be helpful. You don't have to worry about it during the actual session. Yeah, I don't think that was in her email and wasn't something we talked about when she was on earlier. Okay. I'll double check with her and have her respond one way or the other. All right. So just to summarize from what you're saying from the feedback that you've heard from previous attendees, it's not advisable to ask them what type of questions they have. No, I think it just felt more uncomfortable because it was just one person. So it felt more like an interview. So if it was myself and Amanda, for example, it just felt more on the applicant or candidate end, like an interview, if I was saying, oh, tell us what you want to know, or what questions do you have for us? I think in a group setting, it's a little less formal, I guess. So I think it's perfectly fine to say, does anyone have any questions or what can I tell you about, or things like that. And I think there's less pressure when there's three, four people there. The downside is certainly somebody could potentially dominate the questions. So you just kind of have to balance that. Does that make sense? Yeah. I mean, I think the whole, my impression, the whole, my goal from the fair is just people get interest to apply. And I think the beauty of virtual interviews is people are applying to more places in residency and fellowship. And so I think just like, that I think is a success. If like you meet someone and they're like, oh, I'm going to, I wasn't thinking about that. I'll check their, I'll see what their program is. Is this fellowship fair advertised to all of the PM&R residency programs? That was a good question. Yeah. Dinesh and Jeremy did it last year and I'm not sure how they advertise. I know Amanda's been in communication with people that she is aware of and that they were aware of previously. But yeah, that would be important to share. I'm just trying to think. There's at least, there's like an AAPM&R community, right? That's like, no, maybe that's current fellows. Anyways, something for the residents I think would be really good. Okay. And also potentially a list, sir, to the AAP for the program directors, the residency program directors. Yeah. We can share an RFPD. And I think I'm going to date myself, but like anything that is put on Instagram or if people are on X or, you know, if you know people who are on X to share, I think just the younger generations, like social media, I think is like another way, like even if there's just something made. So I'll phone a friend for some of those platforms. I would say the PRM Facebook group, but I'm not sure anybody who's going to be applying has a Facebook account. Those are good ideas. I'll talk to her and I know Dinesh did it last year. So I'll ask him as well for his contacts and methods of communication. Dave, you can make a TikTok. Yeah. Make a what? Something called a TikTok. I'm not sure what she's talking about. Hey Kim, just one other thought and I'm happy to do this to help. We have the two task forces, one that's gotten its foot off the ground and the other that will get its foot off the ground hopefully in the coming month about looking at different pathways for pediatric rehab medicine certification. And on the first task force that has its foot off the ground and we've had a couple of meetings so far, we do have representation of two incoming interns that chose to do PM&R rather than combined training but have an interest in pediatric rehab. It might also be reaching a good idea and I'm happy to help with this. Reach out to them to ask them what avenues they might suggest for getting in touch with medical students even who might have an interest in coming to this. We had a few last year, I know that came to it but I think in concert with what Carl and Josh were saying earlier that earlier that we can get people into pediatric rehab the better. Sure, if anyone wants to send me any contact information, happy to reach out and figure out ways or have Amanda reach out. Yeah. Not that my input is necessary for anything but I never heard back from either committee. So if somebody wanted me on a committee, I haven't heard anything. And if you didn't want me, that was probably a good choice. Josh, you are on another committee. Sue's in charge of the other committee and she's been on vacation. So she will get in touch with you when she starts coordinating the other committee. And Justin and I wanted to put one of us on one committee, one on the other. So I don't think either of us were contacted about whichever one actually started. So if you could throw one of us on, that'd be great. Sure. I think we had just the other committee as well. And again, that's just because Sue has been on vacation and hasn't had a chance to kind of get things off the ground with that committee yet. And she was floating the Grand Canyon with like no access at all. So in Montana right now, I talked to her but she's coming back to the world. It's also possible I missed an email. So just wanted to make sure we were involved. Wait, I'm not the only one who sucks at email. If you go on a float trip in the Grand Canyon, you have all the excuses. No, I don't have a trip to the Grand Canyon planned but I'm planning on Fader Lake this summer. So I imagine there's not much cell service there either. All right, well, it's after 9.30 Eastern time. So unless anybody has anything really pressing I think probably we should wrap this up. Thanks for coordinating. Our is in Salt Lake City in October this year. So just sort of a plug for us annually kind of meeting in person. And in Salt Lake City is putting together kind of the children's group is putting together a Peds Day the day before. So the conference this year is actually ending on Saturday but there will be a Peds Day that people will hear about. So encourage your trainees to come. And I think it's regardless of the fair job fair situation, I think the best networking for people is just getting connected with people even on Peds Day as well. All righty. And again, a plug for the August 26th, 6 to 8 p.m. for the AAPMNR Fellowship Fair. All right, thanks everybody. Thanks Carl. Thank you.

Pediatric Rehabilitation Medicine

fellowship programs

virtual meetings

fellowship fair logistics

interview formats

Thalamus software

virtual interviews

equity among applicants

communication systems

AAPM&R Fellowship Fairs